The following is the full transcript of an interview with Senate Majority Leader John Thune, Republican of South Dakota, on “Face the Nation with Margaret Brennan” that aired on Jan. 5, 2025.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Thank you for making time for us—
SEN. JOHN THUNE: Great to be with you.
MARGARET BRENNAN: —on a big day for you.
SEN. THUNE: Thanks, Margaret, right.
MARGARET BRENNAN: So let’s start big picture. Republicans have unified control here in Washington, but the House Republicans have a pretty fractured caucus, a pretty narrow majority. How do you see that complicating the work you’re able to get done over here in the Senate?
SEN. THUNE: Well, we need- obviously, as you said, to get anything done, we have to work as a team. And we have unified control. We have the majorities in the House, the Senate, the White House, but the majority in the House is incredibly narrow, which creates some unique management challenges. But they’ve worked around them, and we will work around them and work with the Trump administration, the President and his team, on an agenda that he campaigned on, and that many of our colleagues here in the Senate and the House campaigned on, and so we’re excited about the opportunity. Yes, it’s- these are unusual circumstances with respect to the margins, particularly in the house, but we expect to deliver on what the American people asked us to do.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you think that’ll hamstring you in terms of big policy changes that you could legislate around?
SEN. THUNE: I think it’s- it’s- it’s always challenging, and especially in the- in this current political environment, you know, people have strong views, and as you might expect, and have seen, we don’t always agree among Republicans, within the family. But I think—
MARGARET BRENNAN: Particularly among Republicans.
SEN. THUNE: —but what I- but I think when it comes to the big issues, securing the border, rebuilding the military, strengthening the economy, you know, generating energy dominance for this country, those are all things on which we agree. And so I think as we proceed forward, you know, with respect to even narrow margins, I think we’re going to have a- hopefully a very unified effort when it comes to those core issues. We’ll disagree on the margins and the process and all that sort of thing, but when it comes to the things we need to get done for the American people, that we think move the country in the right direction, those are all things I think we agree on.
MARGARET BRENNAN: How often do you speak to the president elect?
SEN. THUNE: You know, fairly regularly. We’ve stayed in pretty good communication and contact, both in advance of the election and then subsequent to it, and especially now as we start charting the path forward with- with the agenda, obviously getting consultation from him, from his team. We’re working closely with his team now as we start to take control of the Senate now, in the House today, and hopefully in the next couple of weeks before he takes the oath of office, we’ll have things set up for him, including the opportunity to confirm a lot of his nominees.
MARGARET BRENNAN: How, or what role do you see JD Vance, Senator, soon-to-be Vice President-elect. Is he going to be the guy sort of translating between the politics of the possible on the Hill and what the Trump agenda is?
SEN. THUNE: I think JD is already performing that role, and I think will continue to. I think, obviously, he has the President’s ear. He’s widely respected by his colleagues here in the Senate and in the House, I would add. And I think he will be somebody who can help the administration, as they work through these issues, figure out what’s realistic, what’s achievable, what we can accomplish here in the Senate, because he’s been here. He knows it’s challenging—
(CROSSTALK BEGINS)
MARGARET BRENNAN: Two years.
SEN. THUNE: —in the Senate- I know, it’s a short amount of time—
MARGARET BRENNAN: Just two years.
(END CROSSTALK)
SEN. THUNE: —but he’s an incredibly talented person, as you know, very smart and a quick study. And I think there- if there’s anybody who has been able to acclimate and understand the, sort of the unique aspects of how the Senate operates in a short amount of time, it’s him. But he’s the President of the Senate, and I would expect that he’ll continue to be someone that acts as a, you know, sort of an intermediary with the- with the White House and the Senate and the House in trying to implement the President’s agenda.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You’ve had disagreements with Donald Trump in the past, as part of this Advise and Consent role, the role of the Senate. Will you tell him when you think he’s wrong?
SEN. THUNE: I will, and I think my job is to do everything I can to help him achieve success, be a successful president, which, in my view, means that we’ll be a successful country. The things that he talked about on the campaign trail, the things that the American people voted for, are all things that I think this President wants to get done, we want to get done, and I say that our incentives are aligned. We have the same set of objectives. We want to get to the same destination, but I think at times, there will be differences in how we get there. And I think I have to spell out as clearly as I can to anybody who asks, what the challenges are in the Senate. The Senate is a very different institution. Clearly functions different than the House of Representatives. And understanding the unique aspects of how the Senate operates is something that I’m going to have to be able to share and convey to the President and help him understand, I think, what the- you know, what the contours are, what we can accomplish here in the Senate, and what’s realistic
MARGARET BRENNAN: You have a 53 seat majority over here, which means you can only lose three votes if Democrats remain unified in their opposition to some of Mr. Trump’s picks for his cabinet. Do you expect them all to make it through? And if so, how quickly?
SEN. THUNE: I think, what I’ve promised is a fair process for all of them, and we’ll ensure that they get a confirmation hearing, an opportunity to make their case, answer the hard questions that inevitably are going to come, and perform the role that the Senate has in terms of advice and consent. But I also believe that the President deserves- I defer to the President. I’m very- when it comes to his picks, and I would say this of any president, they deserve a lot of latitude. And I think that, you know, his picks are going to come through a process where, if they get reported out of the committee, come across the floor of the Senate, we’ll make sure that they get the- the vote. And I think that- I suspect a lot of them will get through. And- and we’ll see about all of them. Remains to be seen, but I think that’s why we have the process, and we will adhere to that process and give all of these nominees an opportunity to make their case.
MARGARET BRENNAN: You’ve said you have to see if Democrats play ball or not, but you don’t need Democrats to get these through. So does that mean you already know some of your Republican senators won’t vote to confirm Kash Patel at the FBI or Pete Hegseth at the Pentagon?
SEN. THUNE: We don’t have, at this point, I don’t think, clarity on that. I think these are nominees who are new enough, they’ve been going around and conducting their meetings, which I think, frankly, have gone very well, but they still have to make their case in front of the committee. And, you know, we don’t know all the information about some of these nominees. I think we know a lot about them, but they deserve a fair process, and that’s what we’ve committed to and promised and- and I expect to deliver on. And ultimately, whether or not they get through that process is- is going to be up to each individual senator and how they decide to vote. We have a three vote margin in the Senate, as you point out. But I do think that in most cases, at least, most of our Republican senators are inclined to give the President the people that he wants in these positions, given, you know, the process that they go through and whether or not they can manage the committee process and ensure that they get to the floor for vote.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Does that include FBI background checks? I know often the ranking members get them on armed services, for example, but some of your colleagues, they want to see Pete Hegseth’s FBI background check before they vote.
SEN. THUNE: Right, and I think that’s going to be determined largely by the committee chairs. I think there will be an interest, obviously–
MARGARET BRENNAN: –would you encourage them?
SEN. THUNE: Well, sure. I mean, I think that you want to have as much background as possible that is available to the committees as they make their decisions. But I have a lot of confidence in our committee chairs. One of the things that I’ve made a focus of, at least my leadership here, is to get the committees functioning again, in a way, ensuring that the committee chairs and individual members of the committee have an opportunity to make sure their voices are heard in the process and that we take advantage of the talent that we have on those individual committees. So I have a high level of confidence in our chairs that they will ensure that as members of the committee, and of the full Senate, have an opportunity to consider these nominees that they’ve got all of the information available to them that they should have.
MARGARET BRENNAN: One of your colleagues told me you are a “count the votes guy.” You’re not a “twist the arm guy.” Do you think that’s fair?
SEN. THUNE: Well, I think that, you know, sometimes it depends a little bit on what your role is. The job that I have held now for the last six years, the whip job, differs if you’re in the minority or in the majority. If you’re in the majority, you need to get the votes. You’re in the minority, you want to know where your vote count is, and you’re playing defense as opposed to playing offense. They’re very different roles. But I know, I believe how to- I understand my members have worked with them all for a really long time, and I think whether it’s actually counting, and I think we’re very accurate when it comes to counting. I take great pride in that, and the team- the work the team has done the last six years. But also it’s important to get the votes, and I believe when necessary, we know how to do that, and I’ve had to do that in the role that I have now.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Joe Manchin, a now former senator, told us recently on “Face the Nation”, that if you- his dad told him, “if you can say no with a tear in your eye, you’re all good.” Do you agree with him on that?
SEN. THUNE: Well, I think that, you know I- what I’ve always said is, and as a whip, every member’s vote is their vote. You in the end can’t force somebody to vote, you know, how they- against what their- their wishes are, what their constituents want them to do. So their vote is their vote. What I’ve always asked is that they not surprise us, and that if they give you- tell you something, that that’s that that’s their word and and you expect them to adhere to that. And that’s kind of always the way that I proceeded. And I think there are times in which individual senators, for state reasons, and the constituents that they represent may come to a different conclusion, and that’s their right. That’s their prerogative. And that’s why my style, as I described, is obviously, it’s persuasion. It’s trying to get them to a place where, if possible, they can support the team. But I understand there are circumstances in which they’re going to have to reflect the views the people that elected them, and that’s- that’s what this job ultimately, is about.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Recess appointments. Bypassing the Senate entirely. Would you ask Mr. Trump not to do that?
SEN. THUNE: Well, here’s the thing, and you asked earlier about cooperation from the Democrats. I don’t think the Democrats are going to give us any votes. I mean, I hope they do. And I think they will on some- some nominees. I mean, I’ve got enough feedback, readouts, I think, from some of these meetings, and I think that the some of our the President’s nominees, will win Democrat votes, but by and large, their leadership–
MARGARET BRENNAN: –Senator Rubio, for example–
SEN. THUNE: –Sure, yeah. I mean–
MARGARET BRENNAN: –But Tulsi Gabbard?
SEN. THUNE: Well, but I mean–
MARGARET BRENNAN: –Pete Hegseth, Kash Patel.
SEN. THUNE: We’ll see there’s a whole bunch of- of nominees, some of whom will have more Democrat support than others. But I think in the end, the Democrat leadership, in most cases, is probably not going to be largely supportive of some of the President’s picks, with maybe a few exceptions. But what’s more important to me is not how they ultimately vote. You’re right. You pointed this out. We have a majority. If we get 51 votes, Republican votes, we can win most of these nominees, but it’s how much they drag that process out. And I pointed out to people that if you go back to President Obama, he had his first 12 Cabinet nominees in 15 days. It took President Trump 42 days and President Biden 50 days. So we’re moving in the wrong direction when it comes to giving a President the opportunity to get their people in place as quickly as possible. And so what I’ve said is we’re going to keep, you know, the options at our disposal to make sure that we are moving in a way consistent with the way the Senate functions and works that gets these folks an opportunity to be voted on in the Senate.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I want to ask you about what you need to get done policy wise as well, in terms of providing the president the funding to execute on some of his big goals.
SEN. THUNE: Right
MARGARET BRENNAN: You said you’re going to go out of the gate with a generation- “a generational investment in border security and immigration enforcement.” You’re going to pass it on 51 party line votes. If you want to govern through regular order, why go through this in a party line direction?
SEN. THUNE: Well, it’s one of those issues that has become incredibly divisive for the country, and there aren’t very many people left in the middle. Reconciliation enables us. It doesn’t come along very often where you have unified control of the government. In a lot of cases, it doesn’t last very long. It’s a couple of years. The Democrats provided a template in the last couple of years for how to expand the scope of what’s available to get done through the reconciliation process. It’s the only process in the Senate that enables you to enact legislation with a 51 vote threshold, as opposed to 60.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
SEN. THUNE: And so immigration, the border–
MARGARET BRENNAN: But, it’s out of the gate saying, we’re not going to work with Democrats.
SEN. THUNE: Well, I’m not saying what- they came out of the gate. They had their first reconciliation bill done in four weeks coming on it when they got the majority.
MARGARET BRENNAN: $2 trillion–
SEN. THUNE: Well,
MARGARET BRENNAN: –with the COVID bill and you didn’t like it.
SEN. THUNE: $2 trillion–
[crosstalk]
MARGARET BRENNAN: –you faulted them for using reconciliation–
SEN. THUNE: 11:01:11 – and another- another trillion with the IRA.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Exactly.
SEN. THUNE: It would be ideal if we could figure out a way to do things at the 60 vote threshold and there are a number of things we will. I mean, there are a number of issues where we’re going to have to get 60 votes. We have to get 60 votes on appropriation bills. We have to get 60 votes on 60 votes on a farm bill, which is expired. Those are going to be bipartisan initiatives, but there are some things that you can do. And the Democrats, again, created the template for doing this with how they did the IRA and the American Rescue Plan for doing some things at 51 and we think that a generational investment in the border is necessary, given where we are after the last four years of a what I think is a very failed Biden Harris border policy. And I think there isn’t anybody who objectively wouldn’t agree with that. 10 and a half million people coming across the border illegally, including a lot of very unsavory folks, members of terrorist organizations and criminal elements and cartels, etc.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Do you know they’re members of terrorist organizations? Here on U.S. soil?
SEN. THUNE: Sure. Yeah. Well, I’m saying they’ve been apprehended there. We know that there are almost 300 that have been apprehended that are on the terrorist watch list.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.
SEN. THUNE: And I think if they’ve apprehended that many, I suspect a lot of them have gotten through.
MARGARET BRENNAN: There are 1.4 million people here with deportation orders, orders of removal against them. I’ve seen numbers that put the cost of expelling them at between $80 to $100 billion annually. Can you get that kind of money in the first 100 days?
SEN. THUNE: Well, I think that what we’re trying to do is get an assessment from the people who are going to be in place. They’re going to be implementing a lot of the President’s policies when it comes to the border determine what that- that resource allocation is going to need.
MARGARET BRENNAN: They don’t know yet.
SEN. THUNE: Well, I think that what we do know is we need physical barriers. We need technological barriers. We need more ICE agents. We need more Border Patrol agents. And yes, we’re going to need ways of deporting people that are on that- on that list that you mentioned. And so it’s going to take some resources to do that, which is why I would argue that when the President takes office and he’s going to do a lot of things on the border by executive order, by executive action, that we’re going to need to be able to provide the resources in order for him to do that. And that’s why I’ve suggested that we take that border issue on right away and enable him to do the things that- that he needs to do.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Is it true you’re going to put some defense spending in that as well?
SEN. THUNE: Well, I think one of the things that we always argue about around here is the amount of money that we need to spend on defense. And clearly that is an issue where if you look at every Biden administration budget, there wasn’t a single one of them when it came to military spending that came up- kept up even with inflation. So we have a military readiness in this country. You know, we have the defense strategy or commission, defense commission strategy group that comes out with report all the time and tells us we are dramatically underfunded relative to countries like China–
MARGARET BRENNAN: Those should be bipartisan issues, right?
SEN. THUNE: And that we don’t have the capacity well, and we don’t have the capacity and the capability to do what needs to be done to protect the country. So, I- my argument would be, and yes, those should be bipartisan, but there- it is very difficult, in my experience around here, there’s a big difference in Delta, in the two parties and how they approach the issue of defense and, you know, and military readiness. And I think we are dramatically underfunding our military today. I think the President believes that, President Trump, and I think a lot of our Republican colleagues in the House, the Senate, share that view. So can we do this through reconciliation? We’re obviously looking at our options.
MARGARET BRENNAN: I want to make sure I ask you about the other big promise you made in terms of delivering on tax reform and reconciliation. The estimates are it could add $4 trillion over the next decade. Is that really something you think is going to pass on a party line vote and without any revenue or spending cuts? You can’t be comfortable.
SEN. THIUNE:
Well- there- there are- its current policy. So it’s- it is these are- these are tax laws that will expire at the end of this year if Congress doesn’t take action to extend them, and it would represent a $4 trillion tax increase on the American people if we don’t extend that policy. We’re going to have a very robust conversation about tax reform. I was a big part of it back in 2017 when we did the initial Trump tax cuts. And this time around, there’s a lot riding on it. There’s a lot riding on it economically. I think regulatory policy, tax policy, energy policy, are going to be really essential to the strength of the- our economy, how fast we can grow and expand and create better paying jobs in this country. So I’m a big believer in pro-growth tax policy. I believe you get a lot of that back through growth and additional revenue every 1 percent–
MARGARET BRENNAN: Not tariffs as Mr. Trump has promised?
SEN. THUNE: Well, that’s- that’s a different subject, but I would say every 1 percent increase in GDP and economic growth, we’re told, generates about $3 trillion in additional tax revenue. So you’re going to get some back in terms of a growth dividend, and there will be spending cuts. There’s no question about it. Our members in both the House and the Senate want to ensure that when we do tax reform through reconciliation, that it also includes significant reductions in spending, particularly in certain areas. And I think that’s something that as we work through this, we’ll figure out a way to do this in a way that hopefully inspires 51 votes in the Senate and 218 in the House to get this across the finish line.
MARGARET BRENNAN: But going out of the gate with two big issues on party line votes – aren’t you concerned that will blow up your chances at working with Democrats on some of those bigger immigration issues or bigger policies?
SEN. JOHN THUNE: Well, I think we- we need to continue to work on those big policy issues, but I also think we have some immediate concerns – matters that need to be addressed – one of which is national security, given the increasingly dangerous world in which we live. And of course, I would argue that starts with the border. So border, national security. I think energy policy, energy dominance is a huge objective and goal, and I would hope that a reconciliation bill could also address that issue. If we do something on taxes, that traditionally has been- in the past, the Democrats did it twice while they had the majority in the last session of the Congress, they did two big reconciliation bills, both of which did a lot of tax policy, spending policy, etc.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Trump did that in 2017 too, with taxes.
SEN JOHN THUNE: And that’s – and both sides have done it. And that’s- that’s the unique aspect of having unified control of the government. You can do things in the Senate at 51 votes. But I think those are all important, and they are things that, as a country, if we don’t get right, I fear what the results and the outcome will be. You can’t have a $4 trillion increase in taxes on the American people at the end of this year if Congress doesn’t act. I think that is a very compelling, you know, powerful incentive for members of Congress to come together and work constructively in a unified way as a team to get some of these things done. And yes, it’d be ideal if you could do it bipartisan. I hope that there are some Democrats who would vote for some of the tax policies that we have, but I’m not- I’m not expecting that at the moment.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Leader, it is wonderful to be here with you and to have the time, and I hope we can have more conversations in the future.
SEN. JOHN THUNE: Sounds good. Thanks Margaret.
MARGARET BRENNAN: There’s a lot more to cover.
SEN. JOHN THUNE: Great to be with you. Thank you. Happy New Year.
MARGARET BRENNAN: Happy New Year to you.
